#linuxcnc Logs
Nov 20 2025
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:05 AM lcnc-relay: <TurBoss> morning
12:24 AM xxcoder: morn morning
12:24 AM xxcoder: *moin damn my cross-language joke is ruined
12:24 AM lcnc-relay: <TurBoss> 😄
12:29 AM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> IDEs are always bad, slow and too vendor-dependent. I use a simple text editor (Geany) and makefiles for all my projects, so I always have the same environment and can easily switch from one manufacturer to another.
01:22 AM Deejay: moin
01:40 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Mornin
01:42 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Olli (RIO)@: That's great if you're a seasoned developer, but a high barrier of entry for beginners and casual makers. De-democratisation seems to be happening on all levels
01:48 AM jpa-: it's more about a personal preference, even with around 20 years of experience, i find vscode useful
01:49 AM jpa-: but yes, everything should have a nice way for building from command line, that is necessary for CI builds etc.
01:49 AM jpa-: (and IDE should be as vendor-independent as possible, for example vscode has just extensions and the base ide remains the same)
01:57 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Anyways, I find it incredibly sad that the company brough open source hardware to the masses is now the antithesis of that idea
01:58 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> *that brought
02:02 AM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> That's just the way the world is, just don't use it.
02:02 AM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> What was open source will remain so, just not new things, but you don't have to use those anyway.
02:06 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> No, I hope an alternative rises up quickly to keep the enthusiast movement going though, I think it's been a positive thing for the world. I've been teaching my boy with the Aeduino IDE
02:25 AM jpa-: raspberry pico is good, and their SDK is pretty well designed too
02:27 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> I think the replacment has to be something that is microcontroller agnostic
02:28 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Whille I take Olli (RIO)@ 's point. i think a modern replacement should be even more visual and easy to use
02:29 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Olli (RIO)@ something that included a visual wiring interfave like your tool would be great
02:30 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Interface
02:31 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Maybe even a node mode like Unreal Engine/Houdini
02:33 AM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> Hmmm, but that has nothing to do with programming anymore, better learn the hard way, or you never understand the basics
02:36 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> I understand what you mean, but the ease of entry is what created the maker community, many people started that way and gradually mlved on to being library programmers and circuit board designers
02:37 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Moved
02:37 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Same thing with Unreal, start with nodes, then move on to c++
02:38 AM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> Yes, alright, everything has its advantages and disadvantages.
03:08 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45984143
03:22 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Just came to post that link, it may not be as bad as Adafruit proposes
03:25 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Still, considering what the basis of the Arduino user base is, it's an incredibly egregious mistake to make, will reserve judgement and see what the fallout is
03:35 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> some 15 years ago I bought an original arduino and used it as a convenient atmega "breakoutboard", didn't use their software nor ever got the point of it. quickly switched to clones from seeed or adafruit.
03:35 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> now i mostly get nucleos if i'm too lazy to spin my own board
03:37 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> the software side is a complete mess between stmcube/arduino/platformio/mbed/pigweed and whatever else there might still be
03:38 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> maybe it's time to look at embedded rust...
03:49 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Yeah, issue is that there's hundreds of thousands of youtube videos and github code built around it, so the hardware and code available is built around it
03:50 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> To get this dirt cheap hardware you can't rely on people who are EEs or software engineers, if the market was that small microcontrollers would still cost 200 moneyunits
04:25 AM Tom_L: morning
05:47 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> Lucid Nonsense@: in the grand scheme of thing i'm pretty sure all that enthusiast microcontroller stuff is only a drop in the ocean
05:47 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> On a positive note, I managed to repair a big abs print with a 3d printing pen today
05:47 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> real volume is elsewhere
05:49 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Maybe so, but I think a big part of the workforce and entrepreneurs come from the hobbyists tinkering with arduinos
05:49 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Anyways z something will spring up in its place I'm sure
05:51 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> i'm pretty sure that next to nobody in "the workforce" knows anything about microcontrollers or would care
05:55 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> raspberry pi pico is sold ~5mio per year, somebody like ST or NXP probably won't even bother spinning something for that kind of production runs.
05:55 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> In the workforce that develops things containing microcontrollers I mean
06:40 AM lcnc-relay: <Ronald Thompson@> https://jauriarts.org/_heisenbridge/media/jauriarts.org/jRBghQHdomTNkNgzDqsXEEFD/8PvJOer6Mj4/nkrnfigldo.jpg
06:40 AM lcnc-relay: <Ronald Thompson@> https://jauriarts.org/_heisenbridge/media/jauriarts.org/KCRnKzLDisAFgaSZlIQYlGTh/dNQDNN881jE/idosmoesam.jpg
06:40 AM lcnc-relay: <Ronald Thompson@> https://jauriarts.org/_heisenbridge/media/jauriarts.org/dhgoBCKscxKoiyLSzPbNmVIl/2CSMB4y2iQw/eeteteiese.jpg
06:40 AM lcnc-relay: <Ronald Thompson@> https://jauriarts.org/_heisenbridge/media/jauriarts.org/KztjnDrXEiGtOLfJRgWRBAFa/KfvShNxzDvA/cehgipesde.jpg
06:40 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> seems #linuxcnc is getting a spam problem
07:07 AM lcnc-relay: <TurBoss@> working on that
07:08 AM Tom_L: he's hit 3 channels so a complete ban would be in order
07:11 AM lcnc-relay: <TurBoss> fixed thanks all
07:35 AM JT-Cave: thanks turboss
07:45 AM lcnc-relay: <TurBoss@> 👍
08:03 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> thanks TurBoss
08:53 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> couple of stoopid questions on different topics on my mind, today
08:53 AM lcnc-relay: 1. which hobby boards that are of a similar function to arduinos are currently owned by companies that aren't antithetical to open source ideals?
08:53 AM lcnc-relay: 2. are there any good written guides to pid tuning of servos in LinuxCnc? Where are the config files, assuming that's how it's done, and I'm not way off in left field somewhere...
08:56 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> Mesa
08:56 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> oh, it's in the Mesa side of things?
08:56 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> ok
08:57 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> so, if I want to tune my servos, is that going to be editing a config file?
08:57 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc-old/tuning/servo.html
08:57 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> thank you, so much!
08:59 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> there is a hmmm - don't remember the screen - that allows you to tweek all the pid parameters and apply them
08:59 AM JT-Shop: yay the rear spindle flange is out for delivery and boo I can't install it until I get another axle shim
09:00 AM JT-Shop: axis has the tune screen
09:00 AM JT-Shop: if the variables are in the ini file
09:00 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> axis
09:01 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> ok, got it
09:01 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> still early stages for me, I have a lot of stuff to learn and experiment with before there's any level of mastery
09:03 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I think it is called 'Calibration'
09:03 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> https://youtu.be/VWXCAxUzXK0?si=t_qQOrcIT3VAwqAX&t=489
09:03 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> that is the screen I use all the time.. (and of course halscope)
09:06 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> tabbing all these links to engage with this evening
09:07 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> skunkworks@: what did you mean, when you said "Mesa"? I do plan on using Mesa boards for the mill build, but so far all the stuff linked seems to be in LinuxCnc? Am I misunderstanding something foundational?
09:09 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> mesa makes hardware that works with linuxcnc.. (stepper interface boards, servo interface boards) He (peter) that makes these cards is on irc.. (and will answer questions)
09:09 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> https://mesaus.com/
09:09 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> understood, I think I get that part ok.
09:10 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> mesa is the BOB lets say between linuxcnc and your hardware (steppers/servos/switches and such)
09:10 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (break out board)
09:11 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> so, am I correctly understanding that Mesa doesn't have its own gui or program that needs to be tweaked, the cards are controlled solely through LinuxCnc?
09:11 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> Unlike the printer port - mesa uses fpga that move the high speed stuff outside the computer.. Like high speed step generation, high speed encoder counting, High speed pwm..
09:12 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> other than loading the firmware you need on the card (using a utility) - correct.
09:12 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> ok, cool.
09:12 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> thank you
09:13 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (mesaflash - it is a commandline utility..)
09:14 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> was not previously sure if mesaflash was just firmware install, or if it needed a bunch of config stuff
09:15 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> no - all the config is done through the hal/ini files. There are a couple utilites in linuxcnc to help - like pncconf and JT has one that I have not used..
09:16 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> this is JT's utility.. https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/mesact/index.html
09:17 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> this is the one within linuxcnc https://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/config/pncconf.html
09:17 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I think JT's has more bells and whistles - but agian - I have not tried it.
09:17 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (I am old school and usually do things from scratch)
09:18 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> lol, I'm initially going for whatever is the most idiot-proof, I have quite a ways to go
09:18 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> Eh - you will get there. It is a lot to understand but not insurmountable...
09:19 AM rdtsc-w: can use mesaflash 'readhmid' to validate the card is there and working, and see its general config (which is based on which bitfile (firmware) you have loaded to it.) several bitfiles are included (supporting various hardware) and it is possible to custom-make bitfiles, but that is quite challenging and seldom needed.
09:19 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> and I'm motivated. Coming more from an " I'm pretty decent with hardware, but find software challenging" place
09:20 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> ok, thanks for the tips, much appreciated. Hoping to have actual servos and the main Mesa board on hand soon, so I can start playing
09:21 AM rdtsc-w: the forums are your friend :)
09:21 AM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> is too bad someone yoinked the main Mesa board from this machine, and left only a daughterboard
09:21 AM rdtsc-w: they are a hot commodity :)
09:24 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> what are you using for drives?
09:25 AM xxcoder: oh boy. looks lik we got tagged with spam while I was asleep. I have setup things so most bots can only spam 3 channels, none bridged, since need to do manual click to agree to terms to see rest of channels
09:25 AM xxcoder: but seems some bots programmers figured it
09:25 AM xxcoder: thankfully still quite rare
09:26 AM xxcoder: most scammer bots is not that clever :D
09:27 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> Lesliet@ what drives/servos are you going with?
09:36 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> the board was probably in the computer...
11:17 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Would depend on the drives and the type of comms as well, a lot of modern ac servo drives have software to tune them over usb or rs485
11:25 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> well - he was asking about pid tuning.. So I had assumed linuxcnc control. If they are smart drive/servo pairs - then that changes things
11:35 AM rdtsc-w: how "hot" can servos be tuned? This is just amazing - the poor plastic is warping at these speeds: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ue2gZ2vxs48
11:41 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Pretty nuts
11:42 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> First snow of the season today
11:42 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> https://jauriarts.org/_heisenbridge/media/jauriarts.org/TsaUvruaxJwfAXgfZGwOUVNU/xEGXmzG0yhg/20251120_075229.jpg
11:49 AM rdtsc-w: nice, well at least it's all pristine and clean-looking now. :) we had our first weeks ago, and nothing since... typical for these parts
11:55 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Yeah it doesn't usually stay long here, sorta unpredictable though, weather report always presumes sealevel, but we're actually 300m above so temps are always wrong
11:59 AM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> That's George the so far disease free ash tree
12:03 PM Rab: I have a 7I77-6I25 PNG kit. Without, you know, reading the documentation--what's recommended max cable length?
12:03 PM Rab: I see there is a 10ft IEEE 1284 compliant cable in the Mesa store.
12:04 PM Tom_L: sounds alot like a pcw question
12:06 PM Rab: Digi-Key has a 5m/16ft cable, although it's not in stock...
12:06 PM Tom_L: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/34217-15-5m-db25-with-mesa-6i25-and-7i77
12:06 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> 10' is the max listed in the 6i25 doc
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> top of page 16
12:07 PM Rab: Great answers, thanks Tom & alex.
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> if you haven't already ordered you could go with one of the newer ethernet-based boards to go a lot farther
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> I haven't used one of the DB25 boards in a long time
12:08 PM Tom_L: my take on that would be run the length with ethernet and keep the boards close
12:08 PM Rab: I already have the kit in hand. I got the PCIe card because it still seems to have an edge in performance, and this is a pretty fast servo application, but the word does seem to have moved on to ethernet generally.
12:09 PM Tom_L: doesn't make them obsolete :)
12:09 PM Rab: Indeed.
12:09 PM rdtsc-w: Would the 15ft EEE 1284 be overall-shield-braided?
12:09 PM Tom_L: i'm still running a parport mesa card
12:09 PM Tom_L: about to switch it out for ethernet though
12:09 PM Rab: Also I guess that's largely driven by desire for Pi and other SBCs which can't take the cards.
12:09 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> What performance difference do you expect?
12:10 PM Tom_L: who?
12:10 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> Yeah, N150 NUC-style PCs plus ethernet cards provide a great platform for LinuxCNC that is inexpensive, low power, and compact.
12:12 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> You could run an nvme to pcie converter for nuc style PCs
12:12 PM Tom_L: Rab, if i were wanting a rpi and didn't already have a setup i'd go with that and a spi board for it
12:13 PM Rab: alex.w#18266, when I bought the card a few years ago I spent some time on the forums and in the docs and there seemed to be a consensus that the PCI-bus cards were marginally better. I don't remember anything quantifiable, but I had PCIe desktops on hand and that was enough to make the decision.
12:13 PM Tom_L: downside to that is the spi cable length is about 1.5"
12:13 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> Lucid Nonsense@ You could, but I don't know what that would achieve vs just using the ethernet boards.
12:13 PM Tom_L: higher rates i believe
12:14 PM Tom_L: spi is a board to board protocol and is fast
12:14 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Yeah,it would be if that's what you have
12:14 PM Rab: People seem to have a lot of success with the ethernet boards even with retrofitting fast industrial mills, so I don't know if the margin ever practically comes into play.
12:14 PM Tom_L: probably not
12:14 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> Maybe the PCIe boards are better when LinuxCNC is closing the servo feedback loop (vs the controller closing it like on most modern drives)
12:14 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Nvme is pcie in a different form factor so would be just as fadt
12:15 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> And adapters are cheap
12:15 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Fast
12:15 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> The last large industrial machine that I converted was over a decade ago and did have LinuxCNC close the loop, but we also used a 6i25
12:15 PM Rab: Yeah, this machine has glass scales and very old analog servos.
12:16 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> We kept the cable length short on that machine by putting the PC into the electronics enclosure of the mill, and having long cables to the monitor and input USB devices at the console.
12:16 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> It was an old Hurco BMC30, so it had a lot of free space in the electronics enclosure
12:16 PM Rab: I think I'll do that. Use the stock cable and run HDMI/active USB to the console on the machine.
12:17 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> That also let us run the HDMI/USB cables through the arm to the original console. We removed the OG CRT monitors and PC and mounted a thin toolbox there with a drawer and monitor/keyboard/mouse on top
12:18 PM Rab: The control cabinet that came with the machine is the size of a deep refrigerator, but the goal is to cook it down into something smaller.
12:18 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> USB cables for vr link are reasonably cheap with good noise suppression x then there's optical hdmi, same
12:18 PM Tom_L: turn half into a tool cabinet
12:20 PM Rab: It's a really nice cabinet, but I'm past out of room. ;) Relying on the control retrofit to regain some floor space.
12:22 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> Ah, the Hurco cabinet was on the back of the machine, not separate, and not deep. So there wasn't really a way for us to regain much room. It was about 5' tall, 5' wide, 12" deep.
12:22 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> we have turned a lot of control cabinets into tool cabinets..
12:23 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> https://flic.kr/p/qEHrZf -- that was early in the conversion, before we removed the original PC and when we could still switch back and forth between systems.
12:23 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> messy wiring while we prototyped, but a good size cabinet
12:24 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> eventually that PC came out and the new one running linuxcnc went in it's place
12:24 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> I'm not jealous of you having to tune old analog servos, getting them right isn't that fun
12:27 PM Rab: haha
12:30 PM Rab: I will probably do it twice. Once to get up and running with the original Bosch drive, but I have a set of AMC drives from eBay that take up probably 20% of the same space.
12:30 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> skunkworks@: the plan is to use 3 of these servo/driver sets (AC servo), a Mesa 7i97t, possibly the daughterboard I have, if I need more IO, and an rpi5. Will probably use something smaller for the 4th axis, but that is tbd
12:30 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> you can never have enough room.. we thought we had more than enough room for the K&T and we filled it to the brim..
12:30 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/a6-series-1000w-rs485-ac-servo-motor-kit-3000rpm-3-18nm-17-bit-absolute-encoder-ip67-a6-rs1000h2a1-m17
12:30 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> skunkworks@: I feel that
12:31 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> are those only step/direction?
12:31 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> I believe they are the usual analog for ac servos?
12:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> looks like it does Pulse/RS485/Analog
12:32 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> yes
12:32 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> had to double check, it's been a minute
12:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> the question is - how well does it do analog? How are you going to interface it? does it have encoder output that you can send to linuxcnc?
12:33 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> 17 bit encoder, as I recall it does have an external out for the encoder signal
12:34 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> How bad to you want closed loop control to linuxcnc? Would you be better off for this convertion to do step/dir instead of analog?
12:34 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> I would very much like it to be closed loop
12:34 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (I obviously have no experience with that specific drive)
12:34 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> this is all going on a fairly massive R2E4
12:35 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I might post on the forum and search to see if anyone has done analog interface with those drives..
12:35 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> and I have absolutely hated how easy it is to lose steps on the tormach
12:35 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (closed loop is awesome...)
12:36 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> But - those are steppers with no feedback. These would be servos that are closed loop to the drives - it would not be a good comparison to the tormach
12:36 PM Rab: alex.w#18266, my cabinet is the same orange inside. Maybe it's an ISO standard for "hey jerk, your cabinet's hanging open".
12:36 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> lol
12:38 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> https://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/panel/electricalbox.jpg
12:39 PM Rab: skunkworks, are those relay boards at upper left?
12:41 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> yes - opto22
12:41 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> 2 different styles.. lol
12:41 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> it is what we had at the time
12:42 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I would recomend them. The smaller lower square ones interface directly with mesa 50 pin
12:43 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> well - they are inputs and outputs. You setup what you want. Some are solid state relays - some are opto isolated inputs.
12:44 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> white are input - black and red are output
01:18 PM justache- is now known as justache
01:37 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> Yay - got my 'new' keyboard setup. (working between linux and windows qemu) I always forgt I need to change it in both qemu.conf and the qemu virtual machine xml
02:02 PM BorgPipe_: https://pastebin.com/Z49bTD1m
02:04 PM BorgPipe_ is now known as NetPipe
02:42 PM JT-Shop: where is the new radio I bought 6 months ago for the C3?
02:53 PM lcnc-relay: <ccatlett1984@> JT-Shop: next to the pi5?
02:55 PM JT-Shop: I know where the pi5 is but I don't know where the 7c80 is
02:55 PM lcnc-relay: <ccatlett1984@> lol
03:02 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:19 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:01 PM rdtsc-w: I was searching for a power adapter... looked in the basement, in the garage, attic, everywhere... found it a week later in the front room next to the diffuser - must have had it in my hand and set it down there to refill the diffuser
04:16 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> Lesliet@: As I understand it, with the right drives you can have the servo drives do the closed loop and correction with LinuxCNC just doing step direction
04:20 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> Lesliet@: It is a servo, so it is going to be closed loop. What you need to figure out is if you want to close the loop at the servo drive, or at LinuxCNC
04:21 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> My personal bias (working on a few machines, not extensive experience) is that with modern drives you want to close at the drive and use their self tuning logic on the actual mechanics of the machine. Closing the loop through LinuxCNC will require a lot more manual PID tuning, and I don't know that it really helps you.
04:24 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> That would be my first choice. Takes advantage of all the latest fancy motor control built into the drives
04:26 PM lcnc-relay: <Lucid Nonsense@> I'd like to announce we came second in the pub quiz, I will tending my resignation immediately
04:38 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:55 PM * JT-Shop gives up trying to find the radio and watches Simon a bloke in the woods
05:28 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
06:03 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> my 2 cents is - I have seen a lot of people have problems with the tune of the closed loop servo drives. the autotune sucks and you end up hoping you can get a good tune by hand.
06:03 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I now clough42 has had this issue...
06:04 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> know
06:04 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> The other problem is that you just assume that the drives are following the commanded trajectory. You have no actual way to check that. While - with linuxcnc closing the loop - you know exactly how close the path is following the desired gcode.
06:06 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> You can spot check it on my Clearpath servos getting the telemetry data from the drive
06:06 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> and I can also define the maximum following error
06:06 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> I think Clough42 also used Clearpath on some machines, I don't know if that is what you are referencing from him. I don't follow all of his videos.
06:07 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> pretty sure it wasy
06:07 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> was
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I think for most hobbiest - it is probably just fine..
06:12 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I know some of these smart drives also don't like running analog. There was atleast one forum thread where the generated encoder count was ms behind the actual internal drive position. Making tuning almost imposible.
06:12 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> I might just be a control freak. The hardware that makes it so linuxcnc closes the loop is pretty inexpensive on the used market.
06:13 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks@> (amc drives and such)
06:22 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> yes, with Clearpath there is no way you could close the loop via LinuxCNC. You can get a lot of telemetry, but it's all high latency over the USB output. It is very similar to using HAL Scope, and you can easily monitor what they call tracking error (same as following error in LinuxCNC)
06:22 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> You can also set the maximum allowable tracking error before the drive errors out, which is good enough forme
06:23 PM lcnc-relay: <alex.w#18266@> * for me
06:56 PM _unreal_: That hurt. just paid my taxes
06:59 PM Tom_L: _unreal_, what did you end up with for latency on those pcs?
07:04 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> alex.w#18266@: thank you for the feedback (pun maybe intended)
07:05 PM _unreal_: I have not touched them
07:05 PM _unreal_: since
07:06 PM _unreal_: sitting a few feet from me but the problem is I have no way to mount them
07:06 PM _unreal_: they are passive cooling the entire case is cooling
07:06 PM Tom_L: no vesa mount on the back?
07:06 PM _unreal_: I really only have time on the weekends. right now I'm working on the ve7it servo drive I built
07:06 PM _unreal_: I dont have a means to mount to it
07:07 PM _unreal_: I have some hinge vesa mounts somewhere but I have nothing to mount them to and they are not likely the one's I need in the long run
07:07 PM _unreal_: I'm really drowning in a lot of EXCESS CRAP
07:08 PM _unreal_: and I mean my late fathers horder bs
07:09 PM _unreal_: and all the extra tools between mine, my late fathers, and my failed business venture I venture capitalized... Its sad, I was planning to use my dads tools. but now that things have changed. I'm trying to sell off his tools and keep the pro tools
07:10 PM _unreal_: In short.... i've got a lot
07:12 PM _unreal_: being full time single dad with a teen and no spouse or relationship doesnt help ether
07:13 PM _unreal_: ! I really should start drinking ;)
07:13 PM xxcoder: alchol is an depressant.
07:13 PM _unreal_: sigh
07:14 PM _unreal_: so again, which 7i96 would be better for which machine, lathe or mill?
07:14 PM Tom_L: yes
07:15 PM * Tom_L flips a 2 headed coin
07:15 PM _unreal_: considering the minor difference between them which I really dont fully understand.
07:15 PM Tom_L: the s has analog for the spindle control
07:15 PM Tom_L: and takes up maybe 3? pins for that
07:15 PM Tom_L: 4 tops
07:16 PM Tom_L: the other one turns those pins into io
07:16 PM _unreal_: is that output speed?
07:16 PM Tom_L: analog v 0-10v
07:16 PM Tom_L: range
07:17 PM _unreal_: hum
07:17 PM Tom_L: i used analog on my vfd for the spindle
07:17 PM Tom_L: with fwd/rev and ena? for the other pins
07:17 PM _unreal_: well both machines have there default built in drive controls
07:18 PM _unreal_: I've no idea what there working specs are.
07:18 PM _unreal_: torque etc...
07:18 PM _unreal_: ramp everything. I've yet to get to them
07:18 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Spindle/BLDC_Wiring2.jpg
07:19 PM Tom_L: i thought the signals might show there but they don't
07:19 PM _unreal_: I dont even know what the motor drive type is to be honist
07:19 PM _unreal_: I dont know if they are DC, bldc, AC
07:20 PM _unreal_: I've spent zero time dealign with them. cant really even get to them anwyays
07:20 PM _unreal_: too many things in the way
07:21 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, I really need to buy replacement AC ducting so I can redo the runs in the attic. that will clear the attic SOOOOOOO much so I can lay down the plywood and incrase my storage 2x
07:21 PM _unreal_: increase
07:21 PM _unreal_: then I can start getting things out of the way so I can move around a bit more
07:21 PM _unreal_: I just have so much on my plate it sucks
07:23 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> hard place to be in the puzzle, where you don't have much room to move pieces around
07:27 PM _unreal_: Thats My biggest issue is the first chess moves
07:29 PM _unreal_: here is a question. which machine do you guys think would better served by the brushed motor controllers I built. I'm trying to get them setup in a case and all components to them setup.
07:29 PM _unreal_: I have 4 boards built
07:29 PM _unreal_: so I could run for motors
07:29 PM _unreal_: they can do upto 100watt but I have 30 watt motors
07:30 PM _unreal_: they will be geared down 6:1
07:30 PM _unreal_: NOT fast I know but I dont care.
07:30 PM _unreal_: My big cnc machine only does like 10 IPM
07:30 PM _unreal_: but its CRAZY strong
07:30 PM Tom_L: mmm
07:31 PM _unreal_: I'm thinking the end mill
07:31 PM Tom_L: 210 rapids iirc
07:31 PM _unreal_: 210 IPM?
07:31 PM Tom_L: ~80ipm realistically but i never go that fast
07:32 PM _unreal_: My machine I believe is capable of 300 foot lb
07:32 PM _unreal_: on all 3 axis
07:33 PM Tom_L: mine is sitting on a table with a vise mounted and X got too close to the vise once and didn't stall, it pushed the cnc over
07:33 PM _unreal_: then again 6:1 plus strong motors, and going to threaded rod
07:33 PM Tom_L: when i was building/testing it
07:33 PM _unreal_: heh
07:33 PM Tom_L: 570? in oz
07:33 PM _unreal_: ya one of my touch probes
07:33 PM _unreal_: 400
07:34 PM _unreal_: one of my touch probes I was testing touch off macro's I was writing.
07:34 PM Tom_L: you would do better with ballscrews
07:34 PM _unreal_: I wrote it wrong
07:34 PM _unreal_: faster sure but I would loose power
07:34 PM Tom_L: i have a whole set of probe routines
07:34 PM Tom_L: for flex
07:35 PM _unreal_: well I had the gcode backwards and it drove a drillbit down and through .5" of solid steel pressed a hole though it like a die
07:35 PM _unreal_: didnt flinch
07:35 PM _unreal_: bit never broke ether
07:36 PM Tom_L: i find that hard to believe
07:36 PM _unreal_: .25" steel sorry touch off plate
07:37 PM _unreal_: I can take a picture
07:37 PM Tom_L: takes alot of force to punch a hole thru steel
07:37 PM _unreal_: its very mild steel
07:38 PM _unreal_: chinatouch off probe
07:38 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/cnc/JT-SHOP/flexgui/touch-probe3-2.png
07:38 PM Tom_L: just about any probe routine you would need
07:38 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, right now I need to get the motor drivers working
07:39 PM Tom_L: yeah i've been watching that for umm.. 2 yrs maybe?
07:39 PM _unreal_: sick father
07:39 PM _unreal_: didnt help
07:39 PM Tom_L: i'm aware
07:40 PM _unreal_: I'm really leaning twards putting the brushed system on the mill
07:40 PM _unreal_: I've got one servo that has a 10:1 gear reduction zero back lash. would be great for the z
07:41 PM _unreal_: That Z is heave and has a hydraulic assist lift.
07:42 PM Tom_L: i had a counter weight on one
07:42 PM _unreal_: It originally had a coil loaded lever arm I guess
07:43 PM _unreal_: I removed it
07:43 PM _unreal_: wasnt hooked up anyways
07:44 PM _unreal_: :/ I really want to use clear acrylic to mount the mesa controller
07:45 PM _unreal_: That way I could see the 4 drivers below
07:45 PM Tom_L: din rails in a cabinet
07:46 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, do you have just a rotary, or do you have an AB axis for full 3d?
07:46 PM Tom_L: A
07:46 PM Tom_L: 4 axis not 5
07:47 PM _unreal_: ya I have a tiny A. I'm tempted to get a china AB axis
07:47 PM Tom_L: generally only have 3 hooked up
07:47 PM Tom_L: then you need 5 axis cad cam
07:47 PM _unreal_: ya and I only have 4 motor drivers and that would be a real pain
07:47 PM _unreal_: I have 5 axis cad/cam
07:47 PM _unreal_: own
07:48 PM _unreal_: I've had fusion for what 10 years
07:48 PM Tom_L: i've had smartcam for 35+ ?
07:48 PM Tom_L: but it does 3 full and wrapped rotary
07:48 PM _unreal_: heh I miss the turboCNC days
07:49 PM Tom_L: smartcam was the go to commercial software then
07:49 PM Tom_L: mastercam kinda took over
07:49 PM _unreal_: running my first cnc machine using a 50mhz 486 laptop driving a par port
07:49 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> that's an issue I hadn't thought about yet. The big mill I'm putting together is meant to be 4 axis, so I can cut gears. 4 axis CAM ...
07:50 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> not sure Freecad does that, yet
07:50 PM Tom_L: lesliet, get out the slide rule and hand write it :)
07:50 PM Tom_L: i lost my HS slide rule...
07:50 PM _unreal_: leslie depends on what your doing
07:50 PM Tom_L: no calculators then
07:50 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, I have like 3
07:50 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> Tom_L: wish I still had my dad's old one
07:51 PM _unreal_: prob from your time too
07:51 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, I'm not kidding
07:51 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> not sure what happened to his old slipstick
07:51 PM _unreal_: god. I read that as a typo lipstick
07:51 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> lol
07:52 PM _unreal_: I'm like aaah ahhh aaaaah
07:52 PM _unreal_: do I tell him
07:52 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> I knew as soon as i hit send, it was gonna sound weird
07:52 PM Tom_L: if i really needed something 5 axis i'd get my kid to do it
07:52 PM _unreal_: pawning always works :)
07:53 PM Tom_L: i seldom use the rotary
07:53 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> how much can you get for pawning kids, these days?
07:54 PM _unreal_: skilled or unskilled kids?
07:55 PM Tom_L: he at his age knows more than alot of his co'workers 2x his age
07:57 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> not surprising, really
07:57 PM Tom_L: we kept them motivated
07:58 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> there are a large percentage of the people I work with who seem completely unmotivated to learn about the world around them
07:58 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> never really got that
07:58 PM _unreal_: its phones
07:59 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> I always had that curiosity to understand how things work
07:59 PM _unreal_: ditto
07:59 PM Tom_L: during vo'tech they were invited to compete at skillsusa and the young one took 3rd in the nation at his skill
07:59 PM _unreal_: I got a lot of good parent beatings for understanding how something worked inside
07:59 PM Tom_L: it's a vocational competetion
08:00 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, VICA
08:00 PM _unreal_: ?
08:00 PM _unreal_: I got 3rd at VICA, vocational industrial clubs of america
08:00 PM Tom_L: Mike Roe is a big supporter
08:00 PM Tom_L: https://www.skillsusa.org/
08:01 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> Tom_L: outstanding!
08:01 PM _unreal_: they kept my project on the wall for like 20 years from what I was told
08:01 PM _unreal_: because I was the highest acheaver they had seen in a long time
08:03 PM Tom_L: to some it comes natural
08:04 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, your opinion how would you setup my mill? I'm looking at an A axis
08:04 PM _unreal_: also want the AB axis
08:04 PM _unreal_: I dont want to deal with altering configs just to switch
08:04 PM Tom_L: 2 routes. cradle or 3 axis head
08:04 PM _unreal_: so I'm thinking maybe 7i85S add on
08:05 PM _unreal_: or maybe use the PAR port? MAYBE...
08:05 PM Tom_L: is it a sserial card?
08:05 PM _unreal_: I think the 7i85S would be the smart move
08:05 PM Tom_L: i'd avoid pp
08:05 PM _unreal_: thats an add on to the 7i96
08:05 PM _unreal_: 7i85S
08:05 PM Tom_L: db25 or sserial?
08:05 PM _unreal_: https://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=125
08:06 PM Tom_L: you could also add a sserial card if you needed more IO
08:06 PM _unreal_: no no no
08:06 PM _unreal_: to drive 2 differnt AXIS
08:07 PM Tom_L: what you linked is io and encoder
08:07 PM _unreal_: ... hum f u google AI
08:07 PM Tom_L: i dunno how he has those configured
08:08 PM Tom_L: step/dir or pwm so it should work
08:08 PM Tom_L: i haven't kept up on all the db25 cards
08:08 PM _unreal_: I'm just looking at STEP/DIR
08:09 PM _unreal_: I'd just use the default stepper setup
08:09 PM Tom_L: it has 4
08:09 PM Tom_L: and 4 encoder inputs
08:10 PM _unreal_: 7I96 has 5 motor control. so I could just do one more that would give me the 6
08:10 PM _unreal_: but thats for a future date regardless
08:10 PM Tom_L: you'd want to find the right bit/bin file for it
08:10 PM _unreal_: ya
08:10 PM _unreal_: I'm just thinking it would be nice to have a and AB setup
08:11 PM _unreal_: just have them be part of the entire setup
08:11 PM _unreal_: so I can just grap the alt axis and rig it up on the XY
08:11 PM _unreal_: table
08:12 PM _unreal_: both machines are setup on nice pedestals with underside storage
08:12 PM _unreal_: checking on din
08:13 PM Tom_L: you need lots of Z if you want a cradle
08:14 PM _unreal_: I have LOTS of z
08:14 PM _unreal_: I think that mill has like 12" of z
08:14 PM _unreal_: brb
08:14 PM _unreal_: checking
08:16 PM _unreal_: z is 10"
08:17 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> that's what the Tormach has, and it gets used up quick
08:17 PM Tom_L: my z is 7 and i wish i had 2x that
08:17 PM Tom_L: get a cradle or a vise and any length of tooling and that goes away very quick
08:18 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> the R2E4 has only 5 on the head, but you can manually crank the table down. I forget hom much, but a lot
08:18 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> how
08:18 PM Tom_L: i wound up getting a set of stub length drills for that reason
08:20 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> 14.5" knee travel with the table, plus the 5" in the head
08:22 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> have read about people setting the knee up to move under power as well, but you'd need some air springs or counterweights, I expect
08:23 PM lcnc-relay: <Lesliet@> not sure I'll bother, any time soon
11:30 PM lcnc-relay: <Olli (RIO)@> moin