#linuxcnc Logs
May 20 2025
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:11 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> moin
01:17 AM mrec: rs: of the radius, there are also some errors >10 microns
01:17 AM mrec: depends which values you pass
01:18 AM mrec: even values are spot on
01:32 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> Do you know, is somebody working on integration of cavalier contours?
01:35 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> Afaik clipper can't deal with arcs do arcs are converted to line segments for clipper and converted back with some crude heuristics. And iirc not all cam operations use clipper for offsetting.
02:15 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> i using cavalier contours in my cam (viaconstructor)
02:39 AM mrec: no one is working on it at the moment
02:39 AM mrec: cavalier is spot on
02:44 AM mrec: clipper 1 is used with freecad, there's also clipper2
02:44 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> mrec: What are you talking about?
02:45 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> cam for freecad ?
02:45 AM mrec: I observed a cam error with freecad, some holes are off up to 15 microns
02:46 AM mrec: (that's only what I have observed... maybe the errors can be higher in some cases)
02:56 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> and the cam gives you G01 commands ? no arcs ?
03:02 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> if you have an DXF file, i can check what my cam is doing
03:07 AM jpa-: i think it is mostly the adaptive toolpath in freecad that uses clipper? i think most other operations use freecad's own geometry routines?
03:08 AM jpa-: and for adaptive you have the slider that sets precision
04:07 AM mrec: close to everything uses it eg. for contours
04:08 AM mrec: freecad translates the segments back to arcs
04:08 AM mrec: https://pastebin.com/gM9fVZHU
04:09 AM mrec: 12.56mm radius -4.5mm = 8.0565279
04:10 AM mrec: putting cavalier into FreeCAD would be nice maybe I'll spend some time this weekend.
04:11 AM mrec: just need to calculate the extra bulge value
04:11 AM jpa-: mrec: which operation is that from?
04:12 AM mrec: contour
04:12 AM mrec: non even endmill sizes are affected
04:13 AM mrec: I put those numbers into cavalier as mentioned the result is spot on
04:25 AM jpa-: ah, yeah, there is so many steps through libarea etc. that i didn't see where it goes to clipper :)
04:28 AM jpa-: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/blob/1cfb85a71f4cd113deeccdc175850a37f2ad779d/src/Mod/CAM/libarea/AreaClipper.cpp#L18 seems a bit arbitrary :D
04:30 AM jpa-: with intpoint being 64-bit, i think it might be worth changing that.. 100 µm resolution for points, with range for 10^12 km
04:30 AM jpa-: (though i don't know if that is the only source of inaccuracy)
04:32 AM jpa-: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/blob/1cfb85a71f4cd113deeccdc175850a37f2ad779d/src/Mod/CAM/libarea/Area.cpp#L12-L25 these are probably important too
04:40 AM Tom_L: morning
05:24 AM mrec: I passed the numbers directly to clipper
05:24 AM mrec: clipper returned the wrong numbers
05:25 AM mrec: whatever freecad is doing doesn't matter, but yes they are doing some upscaling
05:25 AM mrec: up/downscaling
05:29 AM jpa-: of course there is scaling, considering clipper only takes ints
05:29 AM jpa-: and how much you scale and how small segments you use affects the error
05:29 AM jpa-: but yeah, if there is a fully accurate lib, that's of course better if it has the same performance
05:30 AM Deejay: moin
05:42 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> I think clipper can only do ‘int’ and not 'float'
05:42 AM mrec: it doesn't matter
05:43 AM mrec: freecad up/downscales to work around that
05:44 AM jpa-: i don't think it is strictly necessary for a CAM to be perfectly numerically accurate, but i would certainly hope for the error to be less than a micrometer
05:44 AM mrec: 10-20 microns can be relevant
05:45 AM mrec: hermle CNC machines are rated below 10 microns
05:45 AM jpa-: it seems that with suitable scaling and by having enough segments, it would be possible to improve the accuracy with minimal changes
05:46 AM mrec: actually I don't think so
05:46 AM jpa-: why?
05:47 AM mrec: the issue happens with a large integer number.. but well I don't care the problem has been solved with another library
05:47 AM mrec: and clipper 1 is possibly obsolete too
05:48 AM jpa-: yeah, i think the issue may be segment count for you
05:49 AM jpa-: i'm not sure whether the 10000 scaling constant applies to 1 meter, 1 mm or if it applies based on selected freecad unit (which would be rather silly)
05:49 AM mrec: https://pastebin.com/gM9fVZHU
05:49 AM mrec: those are the values that go into clipper 1
05:49 AM mrec: and come from clipper 1
05:50 AM jpa-: to be honest, i understand nothing about htat
05:50 AM mrec: 0 / 60 -- 125600000 0
05:50 AM mrec: 0 / 19 -- 80565279 0 // this comes from clipper
05:51 AM mrec: and again cavalier returns the correct one 806...
05:52 AM jpa-: does cavalier get the same segmented stuff or actual arcs?
05:54 AM lcnc-relay: <meisterdippel@> cavalier using arcs (bulge)
05:54 AM jpa-: because it seems to me that with an inside corner at that vertex, it's not unexpected for the middle vertex to get offset when the imaginary circle hits the side segments
05:55 AM jpa-: whereas with a true arc with larger radius than the tool radius, no offset is expected at the extreme point
05:55 AM jpa-: and as you increase the number of segments freecad splits the arc to, the amount of displacement would get smaller
06:00 AM mrec: I noticed this problem when milling larger holes with that industrial mitsubishi cnc I could not fit in the shaft into holes created with non even endmills / using G2/G3
06:00 AM mrec: even endmills were okay
06:01 AM mrec: so I started to check the G-Code a few days ago
06:47 AM rdtsc-w: nice work mrec :)
06:48 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> I investigated cavalier contours and started a branch in freecad a few months ago, but got bogged down in the "insanity" of adding a new library to the build-system
06:48 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> never got to writing any actual code
06:49 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> clipper2 is written in rust AFAIK, so there is no straight-forward upgrade path there
06:54 AM rdtsc-w: wouldn't be surprised if a LLM nowadays could convert the source to another language, or at least a good start at one
06:55 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> also if you look at "engraving" operation, that uses a different offsetting algorithm, something implemented "ad hoc" in profile IIRC. I wonder if offsetting is available in opencascade kernel?
07:00 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> I'm pretty sure you can't convert non.trivial rust to c++ via LLM
07:35 AM rdtsc-w: perhaps not yet, but https://www.codeconvert.ai/rust-to-c++-converter
07:35 AM rdtsc-w: interesting, https://explainshell.com
07:55 AM mrec: a local llm which can convert a datasheet to C code and correctly guess what I want would be nice
07:55 AM mrec: but that's not going to happen
07:55 AM bjorkintosh: mrec: what does the datasheet look like?
07:55 AM bjorkintosh: is it uniform?
07:55 AM bjorkintosh: might just need a parser and generator to do that. no LLM required.
07:55 AM rdtsc-w: flex + bison
07:55 AM mrec: it's just a regular datasheet from an IC company they are all a bit different as usual
08:00 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> that code converter happily translates incorrect rust code to c++
08:04 AM mrec: not only rust also python to C++
08:19 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> if the LLM knew what it was doing it would generate a python interpreter in C++
08:47 AM mrec: wh.... in spain if you want to withdraw 3000 EUR from the bankaccount you need to notify the tax authorities 3 days in advance about the purpose and who you want to pay?!
08:49 AM bjorkintosh: mrec: that way that can assist you by reducing that huge 3,000.00
08:49 AM bjorkintosh: they're here to help :-D
08:54 AM mrec: god bless the Taiwan Dollar (for now)
08:54 AM mrec: they even accept illegal farmland companies where companies pay less electricity. Sometimes the police is visiting them and giving them some penalty (which is usually paid by the land owner)
08:55 AM mrec: but that rarely happens because they don't want to hurt the businesses
10:03 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> anti-tax-fraud. applies to cash withdrawals.
10:05 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> i remember when working in france and driving a rental car with austrian registration i was searched at a toll booth
10:05 AM lcnc-relay: <rs> they searched for euro and dollar in cash
10:14 AM mrec: I am Austrian, but lucky to not live there anymore.
10:14 AM mrec: even though it's a beautiful country
10:43 AM JT-Cave: https://ibb.co/Kxy2J28h
10:56 AM Tom_L: cool
10:57 AM JT-Shop: just need to do a bit of tweaking on the code and add a wrap around checkbox
10:58 AM JT-Shop: but gotta go see my cardiologist for my annual checkup
11:34 AM roycroft: so more "drama" with centurylink
11:35 AM roycroft: i was just told that as a utility they have the right to install their cables wherever they want/need to to service their customers and there's nothing i can do about it
11:36 AM roycroft: i responded that they were constrained to using easements to do that, and that their line over my shop is not in a recorded easement. i told them to show me where they have a recorded easement where their line is run, as my title insurance company say there is none
11:36 AM roycroft: they responded that it's there, and i cannot touch it
11:37 AM roycroft: my response was that it's not there legally, and that when i purchased the property part of the sales contract conveyed ownership of anything on the property at closing time to me
11:37 AM roycroft: and that i consider their cable my personal property, and can do with it what i wish
11:38 AM roycroft: they are now consulting their legal department
11:38 AM rdtsc-w: escalator, going up
11:38 AM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> yeck
11:39 AM roycroft: the gist of what i'm getting from them is not "we don't want to move that drop", it's "we don't want to have to send a truck an hour's drive just to move that drop"
11:39 AM roycroft: i.e. if i were in town it would be no problem
11:44 AM * roycroft is about ready to file a complaint with the puc
11:45 AM xxcoder: jeez
11:46 AM roycroft: "nice cable you have almost touching my roof. it would be a shame if anything happened to it"
11:55 AM roycroft: i actually talked to a friend of mine who is a general contractor and he said that roofers would just cut the drop if it got in their way
11:55 AM roycroft: personally i want to avoid that
11:55 AM roycroft: but if centurylink don't care than perhaps that's the actual option
11:57 AM xxcoder: best to have roofers do it for you
12:12 PM * Tom_L thinks roycroft is a trouble maker :)
12:13 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> My dad would have done the same.
12:14 PM Tom_L: if it weren't in use and it was in my way i'd get rid of it
12:14 PM xxcoder: its in use, just for some neighbor
12:15 PM Tom_L: a sudden storm knocked it down
12:15 PM Tom_L: very localized
12:16 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> lol - how many times did they say 'if the wiring problem is inside the house - you will be charged..'
12:16 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> the wiring isn't in the house..
12:16 PM roycroft: none of the times
12:16 PM roycroft: to their credit
12:17 PM Tom_L: i have 2 unused phone lines i'm considering removing
12:17 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> Really? I bet we got that a dozen or more times..
12:17 PM Tom_L: they're not really hurting anything but are under a large tree
12:18 PM roycroft: i am not their customer, so perhaps that is why i never got the admonition
12:18 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> ah
12:18 PM Tom_L: cut it and let the customer complain of an outtage
12:19 PM Tom_L: gee i thought it was a clothes line
12:20 PM roycroft: the customer is my next door neighbor
12:20 PM roycroft: and both the husband and the wife have been in hospital recently
12:20 PM Tom_L: have them put in the request
12:21 PM roycroft: i would hate to cut the line if it's a literal lifeline for them
12:21 PM roycroft: i would not want to cut it anyway, as it would at the very least inconvenience them
12:21 PM roycroft: and it's not their fault that a predecessor of centurylink were lazy and disprespectful of property rights
12:22 PM Tom_L: nor yours
12:22 PM roycroft: no, nor mine
12:22 PM roycroft: and i don't mind taking actions that impact centurylink
12:23 PM roycroft: but i do not want to take actions that might impact my neighbors
12:28 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> I was just writing to that effect. You don't want to cause issuses with your neighbor.
01:18 PM rdtsc-w: and don't froget, that line isn't fused... cutting it haphazardly could expose hundreds of amps for a short time, before something major blew up, like a transformer, leaving everyone without power
01:20 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> (phone - not power)
01:21 PM rdtsc-w: oh yeah, well if it's a phone line, just stretch it to your fence :)
01:21 PM xxcoder: lot is too large for that from what I understand
01:22 PM rdtsc-w: a comealong would work :) kidding of course
01:27 PM roycroft: the drop is a good 12-15m away from the easement
01:28 PM roycroft: and besides the other obvious reasons, stretching the cable might damage my neighbor's house
01:29 PM roycroft: and i would be liable for the damage
01:29 PM roycroft: if anything i would cut it, but i do not intend to do even that
02:17 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> talk to the neigbor - splice it - make it longer - run it around you property.. 😉
02:20 PM roycroft: it's neither the neighbor's responsibility nor mine
02:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> sounds like it isn't centurytels either.
02:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> (according to them)
02:33 PM roycroft: they are the ones who strung the illegal drop
02:35 PM roycroft: well, one of their predecessors did that
02:35 PM roycroft: but when you borg someone you borg al of the
02:39 PM roycroft: eir stuff, the good and the bad
03:12 PM xxcoder: bah I dont understand html lol
03:12 PM xxcoder: I wanted text to always fill the table cell its in, font size as large as possible
03:18 PM lcnc-relay: <rs> you probably need some CSS for that.
03:19 PM xxcoder: im gtrying VH. I changed VH till text filled space pretty well. now waiting for mission/outcome to change to see if it works.
03:32 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:44 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:44 PM xxcoder: rs I couldnt find example that fills text in box when can. most is just fit to width
03:59 PM roycroft: there are pills that can help with that, rs
04:02 PM lcnc-relay: <rs> can you recommend something
04:05 PM roycroft: i personally do not suffer from that malady, but teh google can probably help you
04:15 PM roycroft: i'm finally able to fix my espresso machine, which is made by gaggia
04:15 PM lcnc-relay: <rs> i have it under control mostly. nonetheless will probably get a new bicycle.
04:16 PM roycroft: i took a pick of the wiring with my phone so i can be sure to rewire it properly when i'm done and when i emailed it to myself the subject line "gaggia" was autocorrecte to "haggis"
04:16 PM roycroft: i've never seen haggis as an autocorrection before
04:20 PM lcnc-relay: <rs> sounds scottish
04:21 PM Tom_L: pudding made from sheep's offal (heart, liver, and lungs)
04:21 PM Tom_L: sounds nasty
04:31 PM roycroft: since i don't eat red meat i've never had proper haggis, but i've had vegetarian haggis, which uses oats and veggies cooked in a loaf pan
04:31 PM roycroft: it can be very good, and goes well with a traditional creamy whisky sauce
04:40 PM xxcoder: theres apparently "water based cooking"
04:40 PM xxcoder: isnt it soup
04:40 PM roycroft: it could be grilling while in the bathtub
04:43 PM xxcoder: lol
04:44 PM Tom_L: you haven't convinced me.
04:53 PM xxcoder: <span class="value value--xxxlarge" data-value-fit="true" data-value-fit-max-height="340">
04:53 PM xxcoder: that limits height, and adjusts font to fit
04:54 PM lcnc-relay: <rs> with some kind of CSS framework...
04:54 PM xxcoder: it might be trmnl engine stuff also dunno
04:55 PM xxcoder: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1281055965508141105/1374502336495489054/image.png?ex=682e488e&is=682cf70e&hm=dd31a0d46ca8ffc3f3cfc4c2f294443a50e6b2386089b6652b235cc4d49ba14b&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=981&height=593
04:55 PM xxcoder: looks great lol closer to being ready for public release
05:24 PM {HD}_ is now known as {HD}
05:29 PM xxcoder: https://www.neatorama.com/2025/05/20/Turning-a-Treadmill-into-a-Belt-Sander/
05:29 PM xxcoder: neat.
05:30 PM xxcoder: theres probably 100s of those free
05:31 PM JT-Shop: mrs keeps wanting a treadmill but she has to get off the couch first
05:41 PM roycroft: i'd like to say for the benefit of the right to repair advocates on this channel that my espresso machine needs some serious refurbishment
05:42 PM roycroft: it is italian-made, and i've had it for about 15 years
05:42 PM xxcoder: I think its cool that that guy made nice wooden enclosure for threadmill guts
05:42 PM xxcoder: so it looks almost commerical
05:43 PM roycroft: i can easily procure all the parts i need, and whole latte love in seattle have some very clear and detailed videos on how to do the refurbishment
05:44 PM roycroft: if it were american-made i suspect i'd have a difficult time sourcing parts, and possibly would be unable to repair some parts of it
05:44 PM * roycroft is waiting for the descaler to do its magic in the boiler right now
05:53 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> https://photos.app.goo.gl/WLr7pZthYKyLXT2LA
05:54 PM xxcoder: getting together
05:54 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> latch works
05:54 PM xxcoder: it also looks reasonably lined up
05:55 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> don't look to close. although I think it is better than the last time I did it
05:55 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> everything seems just a little off. But the radiator support was aftermarket - so it may not have been perfect. It was $80 for new vs 400 for used
05:56 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> plus - the whole thing may be a little tweeked
05:57 PM xxcoder: you'll never finish it if you want perfect
05:57 PM Tom_L: i've been thru more than one treadmill and currently don't have one
05:57 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> lol - I just want a fuel efficent car again.. (stick shift also)
05:57 PM JT-Shop: I've run into that getting parts for the C3 mostly made in china
05:57 PM Tom_L: unless you're serious don't get one :)
05:58 PM xxcoder: yeah. my bro had one, it was used pretty often by mom
05:58 PM Tom_L: or walk outside
05:58 PM xxcoder: then she stopped, he evenually sold it off
05:58 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> I have hills.. but then that means I have to walk
05:58 PM Tom_L: i'm up and down the stairs min 20 times a day
05:59 PM JT-Shop: that job at empire I did the stair master all day long there
05:59 PM Tom_L: heh
06:00 PM Tom_L: i don't like to exercise for the sake of it. i like to accomplish something while exercising
06:00 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> right - the tower work last summer was good.
06:01 PM Tom_L: like build a playhouse :)
06:01 PM xxcoder: I still havent built tricycle, I need to do quite a bunch of stuff before I can use it.
06:01 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> right - tree house this summer
06:01 PM Tom_L: wore my arse out those couple days
06:01 PM JT-Shop: that's why I like to ride the bike to see things and people
06:02 PM Tom_L: i enjoyed riding but don't ride much now
06:02 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> there is a bike trail between trempealeau and holmen - about 15 miles
06:02 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> over a old railroad line
06:03 PM JT-Shop: there's a real long trail here in mo over an old railroad line
06:03 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> some kids started one of the bridges on fire - now people can't ride between the 2 cities without going on a scary road
06:03 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> people are pissed
06:03 PM JT-Shop: for mountain biking a railroad line is pretty flat
06:03 PM JT-Shop: I bet
06:04 PM xxcoder: yeah. I wouldnt go there, I would never know if somethings traveling down it.
06:08 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841@> no rails left... just a raised trail
06:09 PM Tom_L: would be a bumpy ride if the rail was still there
06:10 PM JT-Shop: iirc it's called the katy trail here
06:13 PM Tom_L: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy_Trail_State_Park
06:13 PM xxcoder: looks fun
06:14 PM xxcoder: too bad its million miles away from me
06:14 PM Tom_L: ya gotta put the trike together first
06:15 PM xxcoder: yep
06:20 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, is the search case sensitive?
06:20 PM JT-Shop: that is an option
06:21 PM Tom_L: yeah i just found the image you posted
06:21 PM JT-Shop: also is whole word search
06:22 PM Tom_L: if you're gonna add replace, replace all should be an option
06:23 PM JT-Shop: yup, replace and replace all... so you can do find, replace or replace all
06:23 PM JT-Shop: I use find, replace a lot because I don't want to replace all
06:23 PM Tom_L: or like gedit? i think replace and find next
06:23 PM JT-Shop: yup that's useful
06:24 PM Tom_L: i use that alot and skip some finds
06:25 PM Tom_L: make sure the 'find' box remembers it's last location
06:25 PM Tom_L: also handy
06:25 PM Tom_L: like you did on those other popups
06:26 PM JT-Shop: time to pick up tools and call it a day... 3 2x12x16 pt boards fitted on the trailer
06:26 PM Tom_L: jup
06:27 PM Tom_L: gonna find that worn spot in the easy chair
06:33 PM * roycroft needs to decide whether to totally descale the machine, which might take a long time, or get it "reasonably" descaled and reassembled soon
06:33 PM roycroft: it's been a while since i descaled, and when i lived in town once/year was fine
06:34 PM roycroft: but apparently the water is a lot harder here, and i need to do it far more often
06:35 PM roycroft: i've never completely disassembled the machine before, though, so i really don't have a good baseline for this - even though the externally inspectable components were being descaled well before, scale could have been slowly building up inside the machine
06:59 PM xxcoder: norm have left the bar
08:45 PM roycroft: apparently i finally made enough noise, because centurlink just showed up
08:46 PM roycroft: the repair person wanted to know when i was going to cut the drop, after using some choice words like "lazy" and "incompetent" to describe whoever installed it in the first place
08:47 PM xxcoder: nice. hopefully, to move the cable and not to assassate you
08:47 PM roycroft: he begged me for time to fix it before cutting it because it needed to go to engineering before he could move it, and when i told him mid-july he was relieved and happy
08:47 PM roycroft: so i think i may get resolution on this
08:49 PM xxcoder: thats awesome
09:08 PM roycroft: my espresso machine, on the other hand, is still not cooperating
09:08 PM roycroft: so i have some troubleshooting to do
09:08 PM roycroft: it's nice and clean now though