#garfield Logs
Dec 26 2024
#garfield Calendar
03:20 AM rue_mohr: the caps lock was wired up like a modifier key, which confused the heck out of my till I realized that they did it so unix users could make caps lock control
03:35 AM rue_mohr: but this sucks, its an 8x13 matrix, which is too big for me to rom-decode
09:45 AM polprog: 11:16 < rue_mohr> the shed is gone!
09:45 AM polprog: whaaaat?
09:46 AM Tom_L: he built a shed to sell for cash a couple years ago and nobody bought it until now
09:46 AM polprog: oh that
09:46 AM polprog: i thought it was the lab shed
09:47 AM Tom_L: it would take 2 years or more to clear that out
11:05 AM rue_mohr: :]
11:08 AM rue_mohr: huh, my septic field pump had abnormally long run times last night so I unplugged it for a bit
11:08 AM rue_mohr: this morning there was a high level alarm from the transfer tank
11:08 AM rue_mohr: the answer is, I have ground water getting in
11:09 AM rue_mohr: it back on and pumping
11:27 AM rue_mohr: there is done pumping
11:28 AM rue_mohr: 20 minutes
11:28 AM rue_mohr: BUT
11:28 AM rue_mohr: it tells me the run detector is working properly
11:43 AM Tom_L: sounds like quite a leak
11:43 AM rue_mohr: ingress from the ground
11:43 AM rue_mohr: I'll keep an eye on it and see when it starts the next cycle
11:44 AM Tom_L: tank must have cracks in it?
11:44 AM rue_mohr: no, the old tank is probably sitting in a puddle
11:44 AM Tom_L: oh
11:44 AM rue_mohr: its pretty wet out right now
11:45 AM Tom_L: doesn't sink in due to the clay
11:46 AM rue_mohr: its a low point, there is surface water on almost everything right now
11:47 AM rue_mohr: I think I'll start today with more sleep
11:50 AM rue_mohr: hahah one of the 110V relays I bought from china is DC
11:51 AM rue_mohr: just noticed
12:01 PM rue_mohr: aha! it wasn't my error!
12:05 PM rue_mohr: applying for ... $0.84 refund.... :/
12:06 PM rue_mohr: DC110V isn't even an option on their listing
12:06 PM Tom_L: does your post have their act together yet?
12:06 PM rue_mohr: the union was forced back to work
12:07 PM rue_mohr: which is NOT good.
12:07 PM rue_mohr: the new age of CEOs depend on the government to force unions back to work and dont even try to bargain
12:08 PM Tom_L: sounds like a cop out
12:08 PM rue_mohr: ministers of our government are partly behind it
12:08 PM rue_mohr: so, some people need to get killed for it to start changin
12:09 PM Tom_L: that _could_ happen
12:09 PM Tom_L: you piss enough ppl off for long enough
12:09 PM rue_mohr: yup, it'll get more frequent
12:10 PM rue_mohr: so, I keep having challanges with small 120V coil relays
12:10 PM Tom_L: nobody want's to do their job anymore but they want 2x what it's worth
12:10 PM rue_mohr: aka, dont have any
12:10 PM rue_mohr: yes and no, the wages havn't even close to followed inflation
12:11 PM rue_mohr: nobody has any money anymore casue its all being eaten up buying rice and bread and milk and rent and phone
12:12 PM rue_mohr: I'm lucky to own a place, rent for 1 bedroom, shared space is over $1000/mo here
12:12 PM rue_mohr: in the $1200-$2000 range it seems
12:13 PM rue_mohr: if I put the spare room up for $500/mo I'd probably get a homeless tennant
12:13 PM rue_mohr: who could pay
12:13 PM rue_mohr: might be someone over 75yrs old too
12:14 PM Tom_L: https://www.mc-mc.com/Product/allen-bradley-700-hk32z24?option=ALBR700HK32Z24
12:14 PM Tom_L: i'm using those on the mill
12:14 PM Tom_L: DIN mount
12:14 PM rue_mohr: ah, yea I was going to say...
12:15 PM Tom_L: they were surplus so i got a good deal
12:15 PM rue_mohr: probably not available with 110VAC coils
12:15 PM rue_mohr: so, what I been doing is capacitor droppers
12:16 PM rue_mohr: you need to watch the current the relay need
12:16 PM rue_mohr: s
12:16 PM rue_mohr: generally, the higher the voltage, the lower the current
12:16 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/temp/Relay1.jpg
12:16 PM Tom_L: those are
12:16 PM rue_mohr: so, a 48VDC relay seems a good target
12:17 PM Tom_L: 24 is common in industrial
12:17 PM rue_mohr: ? do those have a shading shunt?
12:17 PM rue_mohr: yea, I keep needing 120VAC coils on things
12:17 PM Tom_L: dunno what that is
12:18 PM rue_mohr: oh, AC relays have a shorted turn around half the core
12:18 PM Tom_L: hmm
12:18 PM rue_mohr: it maintains a mangetic field between cycles
12:18 PM rue_mohr: thas why I noticed this relay I have is DC
12:18 PM Tom_L: ahh
12:18 PM rue_mohr: no shading shunt
12:19 PM rue_mohr: so, to make the capacitor dropped circuits, one wants to keep the current low to keep the circuit small
12:19 PM rue_mohr: it would be logical to assume that a 48V relay will pull the lowest current
12:19 PM rue_mohr: but they dont
12:20 PM rue_mohr: the coil current drops hard to 12V, a bit more to 24V, and then almost nothing to 48V
12:20 PM rue_mohr: so, there isn't much point using something higher than 24V when making these
12:23 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/tempimage/p1330504.jpg
12:23 PM rue_mohr: circuit looks about like that
12:23 PM rue_mohr: there should be a ~470k discharge resistor across the .33uF cap...
12:48 PM rue_mohr: HaetAuto
12:49 PM rue_mohr: ^^ I couldn't figure out why it was getting colder in the house
12:49 PM rue_mohr: after all, I sent the command to re-enable the heat :]
03:41 PM aandrew: hm
03:42 PM aandrew: so even with *all* the planning and thinking and documenting I still managed to not wire the basement the way I need
03:42 PM aandrew: too late now becuase the walls are up and painted
03:43 PM aandrew: not *fatal* but just facepalm
03:43 PM aandrew: example
03:43 PM aandrew: I have two circuits for the basement lights -- intentional so that if a breaker trips or I need to work on one then the basement isn't completely dark
03:43 PM aandrew: call them breaker #1 and breaker #2
03:45 PM aandrew: breaker 1 feeds a 3-way switch (call it 3w-1) which then goes to a 4 way switch (4w) and then to another 3 way switch (call it 3w-2). The common output of 3w-2 then goes to a string of lights.
03:46 PM aandrew: breaker 2 feeds a simple switch which goes to a second string of lights
03:46 PM aandrew: 3w-2 and simple switch are in the same box, so that box only has a continuous hot from breaker 2 and two travellers fed from breaker 1
03:47 PM aandrew: I can't put a smart switch on that first string of lights because I don't have a continuous hot from breaker 1 in that box
03:47 PM aandrew: now it's not fatal because I can just power light string 1 and 2 from breaker 2, but that defeated the whole purpose of having two circuits for the lights
03:49 PM aandrew: if I'm willing to do disgusting things I can do something like repurpose the neutral that is continuous from 3w-1--4w--3w-2 as a continuous hot and just let the panel's ground complete the circuit, but I really don't want to do that
03:51 PM rue_mohr: why does an emergency switch need to be smart?
03:51 PM aandrew: and if I want to try to engineer some shit I can have the 3w and 4w switches communicate over the red wire instead of the simple way with travellers, but ain't nobody got time for that
03:51 PM rue_mohr: doesn't that defeat the purpose of it being emergency?
03:51 PM aandrew: there is no emergency switch
03:51 PM rue_mohr: breaker 2
03:52 PM aandrew: I do have two emergency lights in the basement so my initial reasoning is mitigated but I still feel like a fool for not thinking this through properly AND not catching it in my gazillion reviews
03:55 PM aandrew: if I could figure out a SMALL way to take power from whichever traveller has power on it to feed the smart switch that would be awesome
03:56 PM aandrew: two bridge rectifiers (traveller A and traveller B) and paralleling the outputs would work great for DC
03:58 PM rue_mohr: not what I meant
03:59 PM rue_mohr: the second string of lights would generally be considered 'emergency' use, as opposed to standard use, even tho they are not emergency lights
04:02 PM aandrew: maybe I described it wrong. the lights on breaker 1 are for one part of the basement's general lighting. everyday lighting. the lights on breaker 2 are for another part of the baseent's general lighting, so both strings are just general illumination
04:03 PM rue_mohr: oh they dont overlap coverage
04:04 PM aandrew: correct, just [ area 1 area 2 area 3 ] along the one half of the basement. area1 overhead lights are on breaker 1 and area2/3 overhead lights on breaker 2
04:07 PM aandrew: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jzvh46jjyzf3ncyfjn5pl/23-Highgrove-basement-electrical-20241016a.pdf?rlkey=rrb0u2mdt8t81cdqm5kn7lr8z&st=g30rcodk&dl=1
04:08 PM aandrew: that's a slightly out of date map
04:09 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/%7Eircjunk/images/webspar.svg
04:09 PM rue_mohr: I updated my webspar
04:10 PM aandrew: nice, I haven't created anything like that
04:11 PM aandrew: actually I solved this problem once before
04:11 PM aandrew: DPDT relay. coil powered from traveller 1. NO routes traveller 1 to output, NC routes traveller 2 to output. output = continuous hot
04:11 PM aandrew: SPDT would work actually
04:20 PM rue_mohr: so
04:20 PM rue_mohr: last night I realized that I could probably make those relay modules smaller if I used triacs
04:21 PM rue_mohr: but
04:21 PM rue_mohr: if I want to have NO and NC outputs, I would need to have the triacs controlled by a smaller relay
04:21 PM rue_mohr: I was able to find small relays down to 8mA
04:21 PM rue_mohr: which means the droppeer capacitor could be about 0.22uF
04:22 PM rue_mohr: all in all, its still not small
04:22 PM rue_mohr: huh
04:23 PM rue_mohr: a tiny saturable reactor, with a permanent bias magnet could work
04:23 PM rue_mohr: not sure if that would be smaller or easier
04:40 PM aandrew: there we go
04:40 PM aandrew: https://ibb.co/tDKrTz7
04:40 PM aandrew: figured it out
04:41 PM aandrew: yeah I haven't done transformerless low current supplies for a LONG time but the caps got big if you needed anything more than a few mA
04:51 PM aandrew: https://ibb.co/yy7bCrg is maybe a little clearer of the wiring I have and what I need to add to get a continuous hot so I can use the exising switches OR the wifi control
05:11 PM rue_mohr: but you could just have a relay act as another 4 way
05:11 PM rue_mohr: aandrew, a good low current for small relays is 15mA
05:11 PM rue_mohr: OH I SEE
05:11 PM rue_mohr: ok, got ya
05:12 PM rue_mohr: its my fallback supply switch, in a different song
05:12 PM rue_mohr: so... you need that small relay I was talkin about :]
05:12 PM rue_mohr: ^^^ just up there
05:22 PM aandrew: yes but with 120VAC coil
05:22 PM aandrew: you might have a better time if you used a latching relay since it only needs a current burst rather than continuous current
05:37 PM rue_shop2: no you want it to fall back when power goes
05:37 PM rue_shop2: that circuit I did is to get around the fact that finding small relays with 120vac coils is realy hard
05:38 PM rue_shop2: I think your going to see what I mean in a bit
05:38 PM rue_mohr: ^^^ its right up there when you need it
05:46 PM polprog: a clickable svg, nice
06:41 PM rue_mohr: yea, you know you can put javascript in those things eh?
06:47 PM rue_mohr: hahaha the talking chip is great
06:47 PM rue_mohr: corrupt rom tho
07:09 PM Tom_L: hah your spring video has way more views than mine
07:09 PM Tom_L: i swear it's what you put in the title
07:10 PM rue_mohr: hmm
07:10 PM Tom_L: but
07:10 PM Tom_L: the one that just says 'spring bending' has 6.6k views
07:10 PM Tom_L: and it's barely classified as a spring imo
07:11 PM rue_mohr: I have a video for one of the robot arms, arm9 I think, and it got tonnes of hits from people thinking it was the processor
07:11 PM rue_mohr: I have to set up and do a big batch of springs
07:11 PM Tom_L: have you used that cnc one for that yet?
07:12 PM rue_mohr: I got them all mixed up and cant confirm they were ok, but I'v used almost everything up, so they must have been
07:12 PM rue_mohr: last batch was made with the cnc
07:12 PM Tom_L: so you went with the coil instead of the V
07:13 PM Tom_L: or did i give you both?
07:13 PM rue_mohr: hu?
07:13 PM rue_mohr: coil? V?
07:14 PM rue_mohr: https://infosec.exchange/@RueNahcMohr/113722008401264679
07:14 PM Tom_L: V https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOFYApGVcQI
07:14 PM rue_mohr: will that video play for you?
07:14 PM Tom_L: coil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lonf4ypINVM
07:14 PM rue_mohr: oh, I use the coil
07:14 PM Tom_L: yes it plays
07:14 PM rue_mohr: dont want to change the design, but I'm sure that one knuckle will be too hard on it for how far it has to bend
07:14 PM Tom_L: and i wondered since you hadn't tested the coil
07:14 PM rue_mohr: 1983 speech chip
07:15 PM rue_mohr: I did a whole batch of the coils
07:15 PM Tom_L: i had a speech chip somewhere
07:15 PM rue_mohr: was it the -AL2?
07:15 PM rue_mohr: casue this one is just the clock words chip :/
07:15 PM Tom_L: i have no clue
07:16 PM rue_mohr: SP0256-AL2
07:16 PM rue_mohr: and not SP0256-017
07:17 PM Tom_L: i need another project
07:17 PM Tom_L: i finished all the cnc stuff for the most part
07:17 PM rue_mohr: I dont ahve anything
07:17 PM Tom_L: last one was thread milling
07:18 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MML9uMz7hvA
07:18 PM Tom_L: crappy video
07:18 PM rue_mohr: I failed at the plastic injection
07:19 PM Tom_L: i should have done a coarser thread in wood
07:19 PM rue_mohr: 1/4" NC but that looks great
07:56 PM Tom_L: plastic injection was a learning experience
08:10 PM rue_mohr: yea, it kinda went over slightly better than the titanic
08:16 PM rue_mohr: polprog, so, I got the chip working
08:16 PM rue_mohr: but its a clock chip
08:16 PM rue_mohr: its not the generic speech one
08:17 PM rue_mohr: its got 1-19, 20, 30, 40, 50, and some phrases and tunes
08:17 PM rue_mohr: the external rom isn't 'normal' by todays standards, its got all sorts of funkey modes
08:23 PM aandrew: rue_mohr: yeah I saw that, you could use a pair of those with a latching relay for my purposes but a single form c relay would work and be pretty small too
08:25 PM rue_mohr: samll doesn't come with 120VAC coils
08:25 PM rue_mohr: thats the issue
08:26 PM rue_mohr: to my knowledge, this one I got from ali is the smallest you can get 120VAC in
08:26 PM rue_mohr: 21mmx27mmx42mm
08:28 PM rue_mohr: which is a *bit* larger than I can make one using a 24V relay in
08:28 PM rue_mohr: to get 15mA you need a 0.33uF cap, which is half the size
08:30 PM rue_mohr: too bad depletion mode fets aren't a corner store item anymore
08:35 PM rue_mohr: yea, if they had added just a bit more to that rom, it could be usefull for all sorts of things
08:36 PM rue_mohr: if they took the numbers up more, maybe to 300
08:36 PM rue_mohr: and... stuff
08:36 PM rue_mohr: I suppose I can do it with my mp3 sound players
08:36 PM rue_mohr: I need to think now
08:37 PM rue_mohr: the mp3 players dont tell you when their done playing tho
08:47 PM aandrew: well small for me means not those gigantic automotive or appliance relays
08:47 PM aandrew: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1109542/22311876 is plenty small but I don't want to solder
08:48 PM aandrew: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1308310/22311887 is good too and uses spade connectors
08:51 PM Tom_L: rue_mohr, http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/rue/speech_board/speech1.jpg
08:52 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/rue/speech_board/speech2.jpg
09:14 PM rue_shop2: oh
09:15 PM rue_shop2: aandrew, hey! they DO make them!!
09:16 PM aandrew: they do make what
09:16 PM aandrew: the 120VAC coil relays I shared?
09:16 PM rue_shop2: the small relays with 120VAC coils
09:16 PM rue_shop2: I couldnt find any, not sure how I missed dk
09:16 PM aandrew: yeah I ordered 5 of each of those from digikey, let's see if they arrive on Monday
09:17 PM rue_mohr: ouche$
09:24 PM aandrew: yes
09:24 PM aandrew: classic time/money tradeoff
09:28 PM rue_mohr: ugh, I still have a lab analysis machine to take apart
09:29 PM rue_mohr: its been out under cover a *bit* too long now
09:29 PM Tom_L: rue_mohr, is that thing anything close to what you have?
09:29 PM rue_mohr: the relay?
09:29 PM Tom_L: the board
09:29 PM rue_mohr: no
09:29 PM rue_mohr: uh
09:30 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/tempimage/p1330508.jpg
09:30 PM rue_mohr: its a radio shack speech chip